Lately, multi-level marketing schemes have been rebranded as “social selling” online. Tupperware, the company whose direct sales model is the ancestor of these MLMs, just filed for bankruptcy... so why does the MLM live on, even as most recruits make no money?
Tupperware just filed for bankruptcy, but the direct sales model it pioneered lives on.
These days, the hustle might be candles, leggings or sex toys. You may be recruited to join via a Facebook friend, who calls it “social selling.” But really, it’s multi–level marketing – a $300–billion industry where the vast majority of salespeople make little to no money.
Our guest is Peabody and Emmy Award–winning investigative journalist Jane Marie, host of the podcast The Dream and author of Selling the Dream: The Billion-Dollar Industry Bankrupting Americans, an exposé of the dark side of MLMs.
Marie talks to us about how the business model attracts good people in a bad economy. And instead of #bossbabe independence, they find themselves broke and ashamed, drowning in unsellable stuff, wondering: “Hey, am I in a cult?”
This is Lately. Every week, we take a deep dive into the big, defining trends in business and tech that are reshaping our every day.
Our executive producer is Katrina Onstad. This episode is produced by Andrea Varsany and Jay Cockburn. Our sound designer is Cameron McIver.
Subscribe to the Lately newsletter, where we unpack more of the latest in business and technology.
Find the transcript of today’s episode here.
We’d love to hear from you. Send your comments, questions or ideas to lately@globeandmail.com.
Vass Bednar: [00:00:00] I'm Vass Bednar and I host this Globe and Mail podcast lately. [00:00:03][2.7]
Katrina Onstad: [00:00:03] And I'm Katrina Onstad. I'm the executive producer of Lately and Vass with your dulcet tones. Have you ever considered sales? [00:00:11][7.4]
Vass Bednar: [00:00:11] Oh, wow. Well, when you put it that way, you know what? I've actually come close in my day. I have a memory that as a teenager I went to the training, which wasn't online. It was in-person somewhere in Hamilton for a cutlery company. But I actually didn't. Didn't get much food. [00:00:28][16.8]
Katrina Onstad: [00:00:28] Okay, wait. Let me just guess. Were you recruited by someone? Did you pay that person out of pocket for a bunch of cutlery? So a little bit of cutlery give a cut of those sales back to your recruiter, and then you went out and recruited someone to do the same. Because that, my friend, is the definition of a multi-level marketing scheme. And that means that you were like a 13 year old in a cutlery MLM, which is hilarious. [00:00:53][24.5]
Vass Bednar: [00:00:53] I'm actually trying to recruit you right now, but I don't think I'm making progress. You know, I do remember that the selling was going to be door to door and that people would get their knives like a little bit later. I may have purchased a demo set out of my own pocket, but their advertised hourly wage didn't really add. So like any teenager, I just abandoned it. But I think you're asking me because one of your favorite companies, Tupperware, filed for bankruptcy this week. [00:01:21][27.4]
Katrina Onstad: [00:01:21] Yes, it was a leading question. You got me. Yes. Well, you know, Tupperware at one point, a very storied American company that arrived with the space age post-World War two, and everyone was very enthusiastic about plastics and managed to endure for decades. Here's an ad from the 80s. the. [00:01:38][16.7]
Commercial: [00:01:39] Look at all the ways we keep it. Come to a Tupperware party and see all the new ways you can lock in. Fresh meat. Cream cheese, cheese. Potato. Tomato. Salami. Pastrami. Jams. Keep jam on your hands. Keep your cakes. Keep your flex. Keep your Tupperware fresh. This. That's our promise. Look at all the ways we keep it. [00:01:57][18.5]
Katrina Onstad: [00:01:58] Oh my God. Okay, now that I've heard hams keep hammer on a Global Mail podcast, I can retire. [00:02:04][5.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:02:05] Did you notice that line about come to a Tupperware party? That was the direct sales model that begat the MLM industry. Women recruiting women. It's always been mostly women to do direct sales in the home. It's social, there's a fun element, and sometimes even games and direct sales is what Tupperware was known for. And yet it's also what killed them. In the chapter 11 filing, Tupperware and some of its subsidiaries wrote that direct sales was their quote unquote, weakness. They never quite figured out how to diversify their sales strategy. [00:02:38][33.6]
Katrina Onstad: [00:02:39] Which is actually kind of crazy that they didn't use the internet to their advantage. Right. Tupperware is such a strong brand, and MLMs have had a second life all over social media. Now, the phrase is social selling less than multi-level marketing, but anyone with Facebook or email has probably had a friend ping them about their side hustle. Like, come to my party for sex toys or come to my party for leggings. I went to a candle party once. I admit it was actually kind of fun. [00:03:07][27.5]
Vass Bednar: [00:03:07] Candle party. No one ever invited me to a legging party or something like that. But despite Tupperware its official demise, according to the Direct Sales Association, which is the association for the direct selling industry in Canada, as of 2022, there are over 100 companies that are using this direct selling model in Canada, adding up to over 3 billion in annual sales. Those numbers might reflect a pandemic bump or teenagers that didn't turn back like me. It's a lot of cash. And honestly, I kind of do get the appeal, right? Like what was the appeal for me? I could start earning money pretty fast. And with that low barrier to entry and just being able to start selling from your home, from your couch, through your social media accounts, you don't even have to leave the house instead of going door to door. It's kind of cool. [00:03:52][44.9]
Katrina Onstad: [00:03:53] Yeah, but the other thing that the internet has done for MLMs is exposed its dark side. Right? Like the internet giveth, the internet taketh away from the MLMs. The anti MLM Reddit has 840,000 followers. TikTok is filled with stories. Really some terrible stories about how the worst MLMs can be exploitative, cult like, bankrupt people. So according to our guest, the vast majority of those who join in MLM, 99.7% make no money or lose money and wind up with basements or their storage lockers filled with products that they can't sell. [00:04:26][33.8]
Vass Bednar: [00:04:27] Or knives that just aren't sharp enough anymore. We have with us today a leading voice on this wild world of MLMs podcaster and author Jane Marie. If you're a podcast person, you've heard her fantastic investigative series The Dream, where she spent a full season deep diving into MLMs, and she goes even deeper in her book called Selling the Dream, an exposé that reveals how the scandal plagued MLM industry just refuses to die. Jane Marie is a Peabody and Emmy Award winning journalist. Welcome to lately! Your great grandmother was an Avon lady. You write about playing with the products as a little kid. Can you describe some of those memories for us? [00:05:25][57.6]
Commercial: [00:05:25] Oh my gosh, so fun. We didn't get like full size products. We got the ones that were like teeny tiny and came with your kit for going door to door and selling this stuff, like just little samples. Yeah. So we kept them all in a suitcase under the couch, and the lipsticks were like half the size of my thumb, like tiny. And they were so cute. [00:05:47][21.4]
Vass Bednar: [00:05:47] Polly Pocket. [00:05:47][0.3]
Commercial: [00:05:48] Yeah. So tiny and cute and like a chiseled tip. When? When they were brand new. I could smell it as I talk about it. I can smell it like I could smell that Avon. Because they were, like, mainly a perfume company for a long time. Yeah. And everything they make has, like, perfume in it, and it's so stinky. [00:06:04][15.8]
Vass Bednar: [00:06:05] Well, scent is so, so powerful from memory to so many people are familiar with Avon. I had a woman in my neighborhood who was the Avon Capital lady. Why is it an MLM? What about it makes it an MLM. [00:06:19][14.2]
Commercial: [00:06:20] So the recruiting basically makes it an MLM that you get paid a higher commission based on the number of people in your downline. So the number of people you've recruited, and then the number of people that the people you've recruited have recruited, and then the number of people that are the people that you've recruited, have recruited, have recruited. And that should keep going on and on. And if you're at the top of that triangle, more money flows up to you. The bulk of the money in the business is coming from in the business. The calls coming from the basement as I'm sure you. And they make a lot of money from people signing up but not necessarily from selling products. [00:06:59][38.3]
Vass Bednar: [00:07:00] One element that I really want to make sure I understand is this distinction between a pyramid scheme and MLM. Just the difference, right? So the structures are similar, but the primary source of income is different. [00:07:12][12.1]
Jane Marie: [00:07:13] I think that MLMs are pyramid schemes. I don't think there's a difference. MLM is the industry and the lobbying here in the United States anyway has gone a really long way to like be the the ones who define what a pyramid scheme is. The industry has worked with the FTC and other others to say this is what a pyramid scheme is, and therefore we're not one because we have a product. So in any of these schemes, you have to pay an initial fee, which gets you some sort of product and promotional materials, maybe some fliers, business cards. You get a website. It's usually under $500 because that allows companies to avoid franchise law. That's a whole other thing. [00:07:56][43.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:07:57] Oh, interesting. [00:07:57][0.1]
Jane Marie: [00:07:57] But you start with a 500. You go out there, you realize nobody wants to buy your Amway soap because it's three times more expensive than what you can get at the grocery store. So you try to sell it for 2 or 3 months, and then you're like, well, this was stupid. And I just now I have a lot of product. I guess I'll just use the product up and quit trying to do this as a project. And there are ten suckers right behind you ready to sign up those sign up fees. And they also put these monthly targets for how much money you're supposed to be bringing in. Oftentimes people don't make any sales, but they'll put some sales on their own credit card in order to maintain their rank in the company. [00:08:34][36.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:08:35] Right. They'll buy from themselves to artificially inflate their sales. [00:08:38][3.3]
Jane Marie: [00:08:38] Yes. [00:08:38][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:08:39] The global MLM market was valued at $201 billion in 2022, and it's expected to reach 329 billion by the end of 2030. Approximately 116 million people are involved in direct selling worldwide. What kind of person is most likely to get involved? [00:08:58][18.5]
Jane Marie: [00:08:59] Okay, so by 2030, it's going to be $329 billion market but market of what? Yeah. You know, like if if no one's actually selling products and people are just signing up, like it's just a strange thing to have a statistic on, like $329 billion of, like, just flushed hopes and dreams. Like what? It's so infuriating and so hard to parse out what's real and what's not in this world. There have been just a few studies about, you know, what type of people go for these schemes. And I have to say, I in general just think it's like people who believe in the American dream. People who have bought the idea that we live in a meritocracy, that hard work and determination and having a good attitude will equal money if you just keep your head down. You know that self-improvement also improves your station in life. All of these things that were kind of hammered into us as children. Same with folks who, are religious and especially in any kind of religion that does proselytizing like door to door winning souls, random strangers souls. So Mormonism is like. Perfect because it's the same skill set, right? Like walking up to strangers and convincing them to join your club, essentially. And then this has been done in a study, a university. They had students come in and look at the income disclosure statements, where it's evident that in most of my loans, anyway, under 1% of the people make like even $100 a year. And sometimes the income disclosure statement will have like at the top line, it'll be like there's ten people in the highest position here, and they each made $1 million last year. Well, yeah, they're the people that started the company. Okay. Yeah. And their and their spouses and their children. There are certain folks who in this study looked at that income disclosure statement and went, I'm one of those. I'm one of the 1%. So I'm joining this and I'm going to be at the top of this thing through hard work and determination. And then there's other people who look at it and go like, why would I ever do that? That's a losing proposition. This is a joke, and I can picture myself being either person. Yeah, just depending on the day and like how things are going in my life and, you know, how desperate I feel for money or just how excited I am about, you know, doing something new. I might scratch off lotto tickets every once in a while. That's like a total waste of my money. But it's fun. [00:11:37][157.6]
Vass Bednar: [00:11:38] It's such a treat when you win $2 or $5. I love the sound that it makes at the checkout. [00:11:43][4.8]
Jane Marie: [00:11:43] I have a $1 ticket sitting right behind me on the counter. [00:11:45][2.1]
Vass Bednar: [00:11:46] Don't lose that. [00:11:46][0.4]
Jane Marie: [00:11:46] I won't. [00:11:47][0.2]
Vass Bednar: [00:11:48] So we think of women when we think of MLMs. I think most often. And I was wondering if you could walk us through the story of Jennifer, a social worker and mom from a small town in Michigan, your home state. Her story in both your podcast, The Dream and your book, Selling the Dream, seems to exemplify why women in particular are drawn to these businesses. What was the pull for Jennifer? [00:12:09][21.5]
Jane Marie: [00:12:11] So she was a social worker at the time. Arbonne came into her life through one of her best friends, and at first it was like a lower stress job than being a social worker who worked on criminal cases, having to do with child abuse and like whether you're a social worker or just like a regular old mom. Like, those are stressful jobs. And the idea that you could instead be spending your time selling makeup to your girlfriends is pretty attractive, you know? I think that her main goal after the very beginning was really that kind of like fellowship. Having friends, having a goal that you need to meet every day. When I went to her house, like the number of notebooks that she has from her time, she was there for eight years in urban. Oh wow. But that number of notebooks perfectly designed, right. Like meticulous note taking. Yeah, just binders and binders and binders of like, handwritten notes. And I feel like that part of it, the industriousness and the feeling like you have a purpose. I think that's what drew her. And, you know, she stayed in long enough that she actually got a down line. I mean, eight years is a heck of a long time. For a. [00:13:19][67.4]
Vass Bednar: [00:13:19] Long time. [00:13:19][0.3]
Jane Marie: [00:13:20] Yeah. Yeah. She was really close to the top and still not making any money, but she got the car. You know, she still drives around in the. [00:13:27][6.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:13:28] A car that she mostly had to pay for, but was was branded by them. Yeah. [00:13:32][3.7]
Jane Marie: [00:13:32] Yes, it's branded by them. You don't have a choice of car, so it has to be a white Mercedes. I think you can choose the model, but it has to be white and it says Arbonne on it. And she had to qualify for the loan herself, like the rates of the loan were all based on her credit score and her husband's and their income. The way that the company pretends to give you a car is that if you reach really crazy sales goals every month like you and your downline, think of something like $40,000 a month. If you can sell that much, they'll send you a check for $800, right? But on a white Mercedes SUV in the States anyway, like that barely covers your insurance, let alone, you know, the payment on the car. I don't it didn't come close for her. [00:14:21][48.8]
Vass Bednar: [00:14:22] So how did she get out after the eight years? What would her notebook tell us? [00:14:26][4.0]
Jane Marie: [00:14:27] She actually got influenced by a couple of people. I honestly also on my podcast. But. Okay, she. She got out only like two years ago, and so she sought out a cult programmer, and she does group therapy with her. And is really still in the process of deprogramming. I tend to agree with her and the people that she talks to that these are cults. Okay. And especially if you've been there for eight years, that it takes a lot of effort to undo undo the, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, the brainwashing that happens. [00:15:01][34.3]
Vass Bednar: [00:15:03] When you've gathered so many of these MLM stories and we were curious, what's maybe the horror story a particularly terrible outcome that might stick with you the most from some of your reporting, whose story just totally gutted you? [00:15:17][14.8]
Jane Marie: [00:15:19] We had a caller episode, where people called and left their stories on voicemail, and the one that actually gives me goosebumps right now is I'm saying it, and it's not the most money anybody's lost, and it's not the most manipulated anybody's been. But as far as real life consequences, there was a woman who called and who has hid from her husband and $25,000 of MLM debt. She's going to have to tell them eventually. But like siphoning money off of your family's savings and not telling your spouse about that. I heard that more than a couple of times, but I know of someone who committed arson and embezzlement in order to pay off that. [00:16:02][42.3]
Vass Bednar: [00:16:03] Okay. Wow. [00:16:04][1.0]
Jane Marie: [00:16:05] Yeah. [00:16:05][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:16:06] I think something. Everyone. Wants to know or try to understand is how can these systems be legal in the first place? [00:16:15][8.6]
Jane Marie: [00:16:16] I mean, in the United States, they're legal because of a court decision in the 70s. There was a case against Amway. The FTC at that time had gone after like in the 60s and 70s. They were really cracking down on these companies, and they'd gone after a handful of them, like Holiday Magic and cost Scott and a few others, and they'd shut them down by proving they're a pyramid scheme. They eventually proved that the market was oversaturated with sellers. There really wasn't a market for any of the products. Manipulative tactics were being used to keep people. You know, in the scheme. And so they got these companies shut down and they did the exact same tactics with Amway and thought, okay, this is like the biggest one yet, but we're going to just argue this the way we've argued all the others and Amway will go away, while Amway figured out a very American thing, which is just be friends with the president. Like just be friends with all the people in in government that would have any power over you. And they told the judge, look, we have all these rules. We have to follow that. They called the Amway rules and they listed them. And then the judge was like, oh, well, then you're self-regulating, so you're fine. And now that's how the industry works. Just trust us. We're good. [00:17:34][78.2]
Vass Bednar: [00:17:35] Nothing to see here. I mean, I'm kind of a policy person, so I was really surprised to read about the connections between high level politics and MLMs in your book. Right. Both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton were huge advocates for MLMs, despite lawsuits and well-documented critiques. And in your book, you did point out that Kamala Harris declined to investigate Herbalife when she was the attorney general for California. [00:17:58][22.7]
Jane Marie: [00:17:58] Yeah, this is the mysterious you know, this. [00:18:01][2.4]
Vass Bednar: [00:18:01] Is the spicy part. [00:18:01][0.5]
Jane Marie: [00:18:02] Yeah. Her husband actually worked for the law firm that Herbalife used in that lawsuit. He wasn't on the team that argued that case, but he was at the same law firm. [00:18:12][10.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:18:13] How that revelation sitting with you now, though, like you've known this for some time, you've documented it. It's in your book. And now this person could be the president of your country. [00:18:21][8.1]
Jane Marie: [00:18:23] You know, when you start really looking at the founders of MLMs, and if you were to look at politicians, they're all kind of similar. Like, I don't think there's any getting away from that fact. That was so many of the former MLM owners have been in the military, have sought office of all sorts, like multiple of them have run for governors. A lot of them are real cozy with with folks in Washington because the fiction that they're selling, it aligns right with, like, our democratic ideals. You know, to say anybody can make it and we're a meritocracy and just be good and work hard and you will be rewarded. And I think that she is not that different from the folks who believe that in MLM. [00:19:10][46.9]
Vass Bednar: [00:19:11] Something that stood out for me, looking at some of the the text from these companies, was this promise of being independent as well, that you can be your own boss? [00:19:21][9.5]
Jane Marie: [00:19:21] Girlboss. [00:19:21][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:19:22] Hashtag. Girlboss. [00:19:23][0.5]
Jane Marie: [00:19:23] Yeah. [00:19:23][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:19:25] Do you think the fact that we're kind of all independent contractors now has made them sort of a little bit more popular, like in the age of a side hustle and the gig economy? Do you situate MLMs as part of this moment in terms of how we work? [00:19:37][12.5]
Jane Marie: [00:19:38] Completely. Yeah, and especially since the pandemic, a lot of MLMs being wellness products. There was a boom in participation during that time. Again, we were all just stuck at home. Why not get a side hustle that you can do from home from your phone? And, make a little extra money? I mean, it's not true, but if it were, I would sign up. If it was true, I would do it. And we'd have parties and it'd be fun. [00:20:04][25.7]
Vass Bednar: [00:20:04] And it would be fun. It would be fun. I mean, I think the fun element is an important part to recognize to the social nature and also to etiquette. Almost like if someone invited me to their house and like, put on a cute party and then, oops, you know, joke's on me. They're selling something. I mean, I probably wouldn't come back to the party or sign up to sell with them. Might I probably buy something because I'd feel like, oh, this is what we're supposed to do. [00:20:28][23.9]
Jane Marie: [00:20:29] It's fun, though. I can't tell you how many of these parties I've been to like way before I started researching this stuff. It's just part of the culture where I grew up. Yeah. One time I had a boyfriend and his mom invited me to a, cooking party. And we get there, and it's like 30 women. I'm the youngest one. They're all, like, in their 60s or up. And it's this giant, beautiful kitchen. And we're all doing different things for, like, a brunch kind of menu. I had to make, lemon curd. Turns out it was a Pampered Chef party. So it was an MLM, but I didn't know that until, like, halfway into the event and I was having a blast. Except for when I got, like a big bite of scallion raw. That was like, horrible, but. It was so fun. [00:21:09][40.1]
Vass Bednar: [00:21:10] Well, there's the geographic element that you point to a lot in your book, right? The, you know, finding people locally, but it seems like in a digital context, you and I might go to like an Instagram Live or someone's like live streaming, and maybe that's how we're connecting with them or other people, or maybe we, you know, break, zoom. [00:21:25][15.3]
Jane Marie: [00:21:26] That's how LuLaRoe got as big as it did. [00:21:27][1.6]
Vass Bednar: [00:21:28] Right? And it feels like influencer culture, those norms. Yeah. Always kind of has self-improvement or wellness kind of braided to it. Having, you know, the right thoughts is kind of right in line with the MLM ethos. How do you think influencers have changed the game for MLMs? [00:21:45][17.9]
Jane Marie: [00:21:47] I mean, it's widening the net of potential recruits, right? And I'm from Michigan, where Amway started. You used to have to first recruit your family and friends, the people nearest and dearest to you in your hometown, and then maybe like all of the women that work at my dad's dental office, and then maybe like a handful of women that are at my church, like, that's what I would do if I were actually signing up for an MLM in Owosso, Michigan. I would have made that list pre social media, post social media. All I have to do is like, make a post that's cool and have it go viral and who knows who's going to be trapped with me. So I think that the idea early on in MLM is that you're selling to people you know and trust was a really fundamental part of the business model. But now with social media, you don't even have that safety net under you, right? If there's any if there's a need to have you don't have that. These are complete strangers. [00:22:48][61.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:22:58] Let's talk about what else people are selling. You did a whole season about MLMs and life coaching. What's the connection there? How is life coaching an extension of the MLM? Psychology? There's intimacy. There's trust. It does feel like a logical place for MLMs to go. What do you make of this rising sector? [00:23:16][18.9]
Jane Marie: [00:23:18] So there comes a point in every MLM when you don't make money, right? You're like Jennifer, you've been in for years now and you're not making money. So they have to hook you with something else. And that's something else is usually that you have a flaw. That's why you're not making money. It's never the fault of the product or the company. It's that something's wrong with you. And so we have this special event coming up that you can pay $1,000 for, and there will be motivational speakers there. There will be life coaches there, essentially, who can help you up your business. And now, some of the most popular people in multi-level marketing are also multi-level marketing coaches. They sell this extra package to people in MLM. Which once again is not a product to be sold, it's just the companies selling you more of the companies stuff. [00:24:04][45.8]
Vass Bednar: [00:24:06] You've mentioned the word cult a couple of times now and you write in the book. To the untrained eye, their marketing makes some of these companies sound less like retailers of protein shakes or essential oils and more like life coaches, churches or in some more extreme cases, cults. So are they cults? What's the coercive control element? [00:24:24][18.3]
Jane Marie: [00:24:25] That's the part where they convince you to stay in, despite all evidence being that you are failing. That's where I feel like they crossover into a cult. First of all, it's your family now, your downline. That's your people. And you love them and you roped them into that so you better stick with it. We have a special language. We have thought stopping techniques. So that's very common in cults where there's phrases or explanations for things that really don't make sense, but like kind of stop the critical thought in your head about like what's really going on here. And then the coercive part is, you know, you're failing your business isn't making any money. You have a problem, you're not trying hard enough. You're not being open to the world and possibilities enough. Your mindset is wrong, and I will sell you something that will change your mindset. And then it doesn't work because there's still no product to sell that anybody wants. That's where it gets really scary, because people are just being blood dry on the idea that they're essentially failures, instead of it being that the make up is like the worst. The MLM we joined was a makeup MLM, and I've never had, you know, less comfortable makeup on my face. Like it was all dry and stinky and I hated it. But of course, if I was failing in that business, it wouldn't be because of that. It's got to be because I don't have a good attitude. [00:25:46][81.4]
Vass Bednar: [00:25:47] If only your attitude was better, maybe it wouldn't be such sticky makeup. I mean, speaking of makeup, the makeup brand, I think I'm going to mispronounce it, so you have to help me. Saint se in. Saint. Saint. [00:25:59][12.0]
Jane Marie: [00:26:00] Saint. [00:26:00][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:26:01] Oh. Come on. Come with me. It's not fair. Saint with an E is transitioning or claiming to transition away from an MLM model. Have you been following this story? And if you have, can you tell us a bit about their restructuring? [00:26:15][14.6]
Jane Marie: [00:26:17] Sure. So it's not just them. This is there's a handful and one of the really big ones that just announced the same restructuring is, Rodan and Fields. Okay. And they do, you know, Proactiv and all of that skincare stuff. They're one of the larger MLMs in the world. [00:26:31][14.5]
Vass Bednar: [00:26:32] Where Proactiv is an MLM. [00:26:33][1.1]
Jane Marie: [00:26:33] Yeah. The same women that run Rodan and Fields are the people that invented Proactiv. I think that they just put that one product in stores. It's kind of a legitimizing tactic. [00:26:42][8.6]
Vass Bednar: [00:26:43] It seems so legit. Sorry to be so short. [00:26:45][2.1]
Jane Marie: [00:26:47] So anyway, there's a number of these companies that are restructuring right now. I gotta say, from the participant's perspective, I feel like it's devastating news for them. When you have been told for however many months or years you've been a part of these organizations, you've been told all of your hard work will pay off so long as you recruit. You've got to have people in a downline. If you don't have people in a downline, you won't succeed. Right. And so I've heard from a number of people who have spent years building up that downline. And they're just erasing it, wiping it out. So people who live their lives kind of revolved around this are getting it taken away from them, not do I think it's right? Yes, I think it's right to restructure. Right. I think it's a good PR move. Also, to say, actually, I'm noticing the tides turning. People aren't as friendly times as they were in the early half of the 20th century. We should restructure. I think that's a good move. But I feel terrible for the people who have been, you know, blood, sweat and tears over years and losing money at this project. [00:27:48][61.8]
Vass Bednar: [00:27:52] There's a big anti MLM movement on TikTok and the subreddit anti MLM. You've been reporting in this space for a long time and you're not alone. There was the vice series about LuLaRoe. There's your amazing podcast, The Dream. John Oliver came at Herbalife pretty hard, and the internet just means there's so much more information out there than when your great grandmother was selling Avon. We know more than ever, but is any of this having an effect? [00:28:18][25.7]
Jane Marie: [00:28:19] This was the big question going into the first season of The Dream when we started reporting. I think it was late 2017 and the show came out the following year. I that was my number one question is like, why isn't the true most common story the one we know? Like, why is the one we know that you can get a Ferrari by selling diet shakes? You know, why is that the dominant narrative when that doesn't happen to anyone? And I do look at it similar to the lottery, right? Like you can be a multimillionaire. You just have to play the common experiences losing five bucks a week or whatever. But you know, they're not going to sell any lotto tickets advertising that. So I think, though, there are louder and louder voices on, I guess, my side of things as the times gone on and more people are talking about it on social media, I think that's great. And I think as we see with like Jennifer, who we talked to for the book, social media really helped her get out of the MLM. Do I think, again, that that's the well known dominant narrative in the communities where MLMs are still continuing to grow, like now? Gosh, it makes me just, like, so overwhelmed at the whole world. You would have to, like, convince people that, again, this isn't a meritocracy, and that's not the fantasy that we all want to be living in. We all want to believe the things that that moms are promising, that hard work and a good attitude will pay off. [00:29:48][88.5]
Vass Bednar: [00:29:49] Well, then you've written about, and we've just spoken about how MLMs are almost a perfect expression of that American dream, or lie at the core of that dream. And this word dream comes up again in your work, which is so often about scams and people being preyed upon. What does dream mean to you now? [00:30:06][16.8]
Jane Marie: [00:30:08] Oh, gosh. Nightmare. Not kidding. The dream to me means it. Is this like just collective fiction that we all live in? It's this. It's this fairy tale that we've made up about our freedoms and our purpose and our role in the world. And I'm talking about North Americans, but the places that the moms are expanding to. That's also being sold there like this, every man for himself, essentially. But dress it up so it looks like industriousness. But really, it's just every man for himself. I don't think of it as the goal anymore. After doing all this research, I don't think it's the dream. I'm hoping with my child I can introduce her to a different one. [00:30:51][43.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:30:53] You use the word overwhelm. Do you ever get sick of investigating this space or frustrated? [00:30:58][5.4]
Jane Marie: [00:31:00] Both. I get sick of it and frustrated with it and I it makes it hard for me to make a point. Honestly in the book I end it with like, well, as soon as one MLM closes, another will open. And that's just after spending so many years in this world. That is my actual take away is like, you'll expect somebody to not, you know, accept $1 million from an MLM to speak at their annual conference. And then all of a sudden it's Bill Clinton. And it just keeps happening. I think. In a fantasy world where the FTC and other government organizations completely shut down MLMs. That's not going to get rid of the crooks. [00:31:39][39.6]
Vass Bednar: [00:31:40] Is that your dream? Is that the fantasy? Is that what keeps you in it? [00:31:43][2.7]
Jane Marie: [00:31:44] No, because I don't think that's a thing. What keeps me in it is it's literally about the people losing everything right now. Yeah. And that's all I can do. But I don't think that my work will change the personality types of people. Like Donald Trump, for example. You shut down one of the scams and you just starts another one, you know? And yeah, that's how I look at the folks who who want to be at the top of an MLM, who want to run these companies or start their company that way. And the majority of them honestly didn't have a product first. They had the business model in mind and knew that the business model was profitable and then slotted a product in. So anyway, yeah, I'm not hopeful. It does make me really exhausted, but. Then I hear from someone like Jennifer who says, your podcast changed my life. I'm so much happier now. You know, I'm so glad that I my eyes are open to this because I for a long time I felt icky about this and I'm glad that I got out. So that's what I do it for. [00:32:49][65.1]
Vass Bednar: [00:32:50] Well, we're glad you're doing that work, too. Jane. [00:32:52][2.4]
Jane Marie: [00:32:52] Thank you. Oh, my pleasure and pain. [00:32:55][2.3]
Vass Bednar: [00:32:56] Yeah, exactly. I was like, are you sure? I hope you're feeling okay. [00:32:58][2.4]
Jane Marie: [00:32:59] Yeah. [00:32:59][0.0]
Vass Bednar: [00:33:13] You've been listening to lately, a Globe and Mail podcast. Our executive producer is Katrina Onstad. This episode is produced by Jay Coburn and Andrea Varsity, and our sound designer is Cameron McIvor. And I'm your host, that's Bednar. In our show notes, you can subscribe to the newsletter. That's where we unpack just a little more of the latest in business and technology. A new episode of lately comes out every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. [00:33:13][0.0]
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