Lately, Big Tobacco says it wants to phase out cigarettes and promote, of all things, healthier options. But can the tobacco industry actually sell wellness? And is this pivot to vapes and pouches a smoking off-ramp or just a one-way ride to nicotine addiction?
Lately, Big Tobacco says it wants to phase out cigarettes and promote, of all things, healthier options. But can the tobacco industry actually sell wellness? And is this pivot to vapes and pouches a smoking off-ramp or just a one-way ride to nicotine addiction?
Award-winning journalist Luc Rinaldi takes us behind the curtain of Big Tobacco’s machinations to report on how an industry built on addiction is looking to reinvent itself for the wellness age. His cover story "Blowing Smoke" appears in this month’s edition of the Globe and Mail's Report on Business Magazine.
Also, Vass shares her secret to social success.
Find the transcript of today’s episode here.
And subscribe to the Lately newsletter, where we unpack more of the latest in business and technology.
We’d love to hear from you. Send your comments, questions or ideas to lately@globeandmail.com.
Vass Bednar [00:00:00] I'm Vass Bednar and I host this Globe and Mail podcast.
Katrina Onstad [00:00:03] And I'm Katrina Onstad, the show's executive producer. Vass.
Vass Bednar [00:00:06] Yes.
Katrina Onstad [00:00:07] Do you have a light?
Vass Bednar [00:00:09] Actually, I do. I do.
Katrina Onstad [00:00:11] I know. I know that you do. Because this is one of your funny social strategies. Please tell.
Vass Bednar [00:00:17] I like that you've pluralized strategies. You know, I typically carry a lighter because it's handy in instances when someone cool ask me for a light. I used to always make sure I had one because you didn't have to commit to being a smoker or even having cigarettes but you could say, yeah, I've got a light and you're cool and you asked me for one, so I'm happy to give it to you.
Katrina Onstad [00:00:39] There was a time when I would have been harassing you for a cigarette in earnest, not just to make friends because yes, I did smoke, but it was significantly cheaper and I was significantly stupider. Like we were allowed to smoke in the basement of the library. I went to university. Yes. Back in the 90s. It's hard to to remember how normalized smoking was back then and how much things have changed in such a short period of time.
Vass Bednar [00:01:04] Yeah, I guess it was a different time.
Pall Mall Commercial [00:01:06] By Pall Mall. Famous length of fine tobaccos with a filter tip. Now filter cigarette smokers can say.
Pall Mall Commercial [00:01:15] I know what I like and I like the taste of. Not really. I learned that. How many cases I like. I know what I like and I like that stuff.
Pall Mall Commercial [00:01:30] And they are mild.
Vass Bednar [00:01:33] I like.
Katrina Onstad [00:01:34] I like to. My gosh. Yeah. So that's from a black and white 1950s pal mal ad. It might make it seem like smoking is yesterday's issue. Tobacco advertising was banned entirely in Canada in the 1980s. But actually, smoking isn't just nostalgia. It's doing fine in much of the world. Culture has shifted. Regulation in high income countries has tightened, and sales and access have dropped. But tobacco maintains a very strong foothold in other markets. 80% of the world's 1.3 billion tobacco users live in low and middle income countries. Meanwhile, in Canada and the U.S., the industry is trying to rebrand with harm reduction products, appealing to this wellness vibe goop defying its offerings. If I may, positioning hemp products and vapes and nicotine pouches as a smoking off.
Vass Bednar [00:02:22] Well, the government is trying to put that goop ified genie back in its bottle. So in August, there was a ministerial order here in Canada to crack down on those nicotine pouches that you mentioned and restrict both their flavors and how you can get them. They're only available at pharmacies. So that story of how those little tiny pouches sent the government and big tobacco into a frenzy is told in the cover story of this month's report on Business magazine. The article is called Blowing Smoke. And in it, journalist Luke Rinaldi gets into the belly of the beast, asking some hard questions in the C-suite of Imperial Tobacco. Now, Big Tobacco is saying that they do want to phase out the cigarette, but it's still their most popular product. So really. Is the cigarette going to be replaced by energy drinks and nicotine pouches or are these new products just a way of hooking a new generation?
Katrina Onstad [00:03:19] And that rebranding is happening while we're still reckoning with the devastating effects of the smoking era. So we recorded this interview early in the week and there was a really big announcement. Three large tobacco companies are readying to pay $32.5 billion to settle decades old legal claims in Canada. So that money is going to go to provinces and territories, compensation for the billions that smoking costs, the health care system. The details haven't been released at the time we're recording this. But according to one of the class action lawyers quoted in the Globe today, a settlement like this has never happened anywhere in the world. It looks like tens of thousands of Canadians are going to get cash compensation for the suffering they and their loved ones endured from tobacco. So that's something. But it also was 25 years in the making. And sadly, many of the plaintiffs in the class actions have died in the interim.
Vass Bednar [00:04:10] Well, this feels like a good time to take a peek behind the curtain at the machinations of Big Tobacco. Let's talk to award winning journalist Luke Rinaldi, whose cover story in The Globe and Mail's monthly report on Business magazine, also called Rob is out this week and available online. It is not a puff piece. This is lately. Luke, welcome to Lately.
Luc Rinaldi [00:04:49] Thanks for having me, Vass.
Vass Bednar [00:04:51] So for generations, everyone had a story about the first time they tried a cigarette. Whether or not they ended up being a capital s smoker. Can you tell us yours?
Luc Rinaldi [00:05:05] I think I was outside the Rex Jazz Hotel. It felt appropriate that I would be smoking a cigarette there. And it was more recent than you might imagine. I think it was like within the past 4 or 5 years.
Vass Bednar [00:05:17] Really?
Luc Rinaldi [00:05:18] Yeah. And I don't think I had the whole thing either. I just had like a few puffs and I was like, All right, I got it.
Vass Bednar [00:05:23] Who gave it to you?
Luc Rinaldi [00:05:25] My now wife. That bad influence. Yeah.
Vass Bednar [00:05:29] She sounds like a terrible influence. Okay. So that's so cool. That is recent. On the one hand, I think we kind of assume that this cigarette age is behind us, right? For the generation raised on vapes and $20 packs of cigarettes. My mind was blown. How expensive they are. They may not have that kind of stealing. My big cousins cigarette story, which is kind of a good thing. But your piece in the Globe and Mail throws a wrench in that perception. How big is big tobacco in the world right now? Who's still smoking?
Luc Rinaldi [00:06:07] So there's this idea that cigarettes are maybe going away. And in Canada, there's maybe a case to be made that they're not as popular as they once were. But if we're being real, plenty of people are still smoking. I mean, cigarettes are still very much at the heart of the tobacco industry. And, you know, all the fanfare about vaping and nicotine pouches aside, cigarettes are still.
Vass Bednar [00:06:31] King okay. A little bit of history. Back in 1952, Reader's Digest put out a cover story. It was called Cancer by the Carton, and it brought forward this health crisis and the cost of cigarette addiction. And it's viewed as kind of a hinge moment. A lot changed from that story. Can you take us back to that time and walk us through how big tobacco responded?
Luc Rinaldi [00:06:58] Yeah, So Big tobacco reads this piece like many people do and sees that cigarette sales start to decline as a result and they're asking themselves, okay, what can we do? Like this is a threat to our business. And it almost as tempting to imagine them in like a very sinister fashion meeting in a smoky boardroom and like discussing this crisis and asking themselves, what can we do? And what they settle on is putting out a statement in almost 500 newspapers and it's called frank statement to cigarette smokers, and it's signed by all the big tobacco CEOs. And they're saying, hey, look, we saw that Reader's Digest piece, too, but we actually really care about your health and we promise we're going to be super committed to prioritizing your health. And this sort of was engineered to get some goodwill for the tobacco companies and make it seem as if they're on your side. But if you look at their behavior after they put out that statement, it's sort of contrary to what they're saying. You know, they're continuing to deny that cigarettes cause cancer and they're fighting regulation and investing and lobbying and litigation and trying to discredit good science while funding their own science that obviously makes their products look great. And they're emphasizing personal choice. You know, if you want to smoke a cigarette, that's your choice. You're an adult, you can figure it out. And so they go about a marketing campaign essentially to deal with this and start introducing new products as well, like, quote unquote, safer cigarettes. And then that would sort of foretell the dawn of the new kinds of products that we're seeing in the market today.
Vass Bednar [00:08:40] Yeah. And we've seen the industry shift its emphasis from tobacco to nicotine, kind of repackaging the smoking experience into that harm reduction umbrella. Can you walk us through some of the low harm products that the industry has come up with?
Luc Rinaldi [00:08:58] Yeah. I mean, it goes back to, you know, the 50, 67 years like it started with low tar cigarettes and light cigarettes and filtered cigarettes. And they all sort of had their own marketing angle, like geared towards women because apparently women can handle cigarettes in the same way or geared towards people who wanted a little less nicotine. And over time they switched to things like snus, which might not be familiar to listeners in North America. But Swedish people know all about them. They're like little tobacco pouches that you put between your upper lip, write up in your gum and you sort of absorb the tobacco through there. And the tobacco industry likes to say, you know, hey, look at Swedish men. They smoke much less because they're on these little pouches. And the health effects of that are. So much lower. And I mean, to be fair, that that is absolutely true. Like Sweden has the lowest rates of smoking in Europe and smoking related mortality. But, you know, it's still like tobacco in your mouth. It's it's not exactly good for you. So that led from snus to nicotine pouches, which are sort of like a synthetic version. These little white, the things that are about the size of a piece of gum and you stick them in there and they deliver nicotine straight into your gum. And then the last big one is vaping, which, you know, in Canada, like, I don't need to explain to you it's everywhere.
Vass Bednar [00:10:23] If you snooze, you lose. Well, the people who tend to vape are younger people and their cartridges can come in sugary flavors that appeal or, you know, feel candy like. Has that outcry in reaction to younger people vaping changed anything in this landscape?
Luc Rinaldi [00:10:44] It obviously is appealing to a younger demographic. And so that is essentially where the big criticisms come in. It's like, yes, these things can help adult smokers quit and that's how they've been framed. But at the same time, when you've got like bar blast and like fuzzy peach vape juice.
Vass Bednar [00:11:02] Creme Brulé, well.
Luc Rinaldi [00:11:05] I don't want that. Among Canadian youth under 25, the smoking rates are pretty much as low as they've ever been like quite, quite low in the single digits, low single digits. And so for the industry that sort of relies on smoking as its revenue maker, they're asking themselves, how can we get new customers on board if they're not taking up smoking? And that involves getting them to vape. And in my reporting, I found that British American Tobacco, which is one of the biggest tobacco companies on the planet, they know from their own stats that about half of the people who vape are not adult smokers who are trying to quit, but new entrants to the market. And so their argument sort of falls apart at that point when they know that they're bringing people in and getting them addicted to nicotine, even if it's less harmful. It's like you're still getting people addicted to a substance that's not particularly good for them.
Vass Bednar [00:12:01] Well, the guardrails for tobacco regulation often play out in advertising regulation, but advertising has really changed since 1952. The early days were all about banning Marlboro Man TV ads, which was relatively easy to do. Can regulators ever catch up to today's marketing culture, or is that just a fool's errand now?
Luc Rinaldi [00:12:23] They're certainly trying to catch up. I'll give you an example, which is sonic, this nicotine pouch. And essentially, when it came out, there were no regulations as to how it could be marketed or publicized. And so Zanik was suddenly like on social media, it was being advertised in stores. And so Health Canada did crack down on the ads. It took them, you know, less than a year, but it still did get out there. So that's one example.
Vass Bednar [00:12:49] That's pretty fast for a government.
Luc Rinaldi [00:12:51] Yeah. Yeah, I'll give him credit for that. It was pretty fast. But I think the bigger problem is not necessarily the ads that the tobacco company puts out there. It's the fact that in today's age, we're sort of all advertisers like we're all content creators. We all create our own content online, on our Instagram and our TikTok. And, you know, it's going to be very hard for the government to crack crackdown on every single TikTok influencer who's out there saying that.
Vass Bednar [00:13:20] Influencer.
Luc Rinaldi [00:13:22] That these, like nicotine pouches are making them more libidinous or helping them be more focused and more productive, like the government can go after Marlboro, but it is not going to be like cracking down on every 16 year old who's got a nicotine pouch under their lip.
Vass Bednar [00:13:42] Have you ever used a nicotine pouch?
Luc Rinaldi [00:13:44] Yes. As a research. As a research.
Vass Bednar [00:13:47] What did it feel like?
Luc Rinaldi [00:13:49] It has a burning sensation. It's like an icy burning, like icy hot back patch. But for your mouth, which I wasn't super fond of. Like, I had one, and I was like, all right. And then later in the day, I was like, I think. I think I'm going to have another one. And I was like, That's how these work. You sort of unconsciously want another one, even though you didn't fully enjoy the experience.
Vass Bednar [00:14:15] Tell me more about that story, because why are we kicking on it to the curb and not these other products? What's the concern?
Luc Rinaldi [00:14:24] So what happened essentially was that Sonic debuted late last year. It was in gas stations. It was going to convenience stores. And essentially anyone could walk up to the counter and buy it, like including an 11 year old. There was sort of instruction from the tobacco company that made it not to give it to minors. But legally speaking, there was there was nothing preventing that from happening other than. You know, a clerk who is willing to sacrifice herself. And so that didn't sit well with many people, including Mark Holland, who's the federal minister of health. He says the Heart and Stroke Foundation, which doesn't like smoking very much. And so he heard the outcry from parents and teachers and dentists who are seeing the problems arising from these things. And he essentially said several months later, you've got to get these things out of here. And he issued a ministerial order saying we are going to relegate these things to pharmacies and we're going to eliminate any flavors but mint and menthol. And so essentially, it's only going to be available to people who go and seek it out from a pharmacist. And his hope was that that would essentially wipe out the youth market for these kinds of things. But at the same time, it's sort of too late. Like a lot of young people are already on the pouch train and they can just go online and order Zinn and Sonic and Velo and Rogue and on and like all these different brands and those brands are going to be in all kinds of crazy flavors and they're going to be on all kinds of strengths, right? And that's like the black market that is out there. And I asked Mark, call and I was like, well, what do you think about this black market? Like the the industry says if you take these sonic pouches out of convenience stores, the kids are just going to go online. And he didn't have like a particularly satisfactory answer for that question. But he did make the point that, like, isn't it ironic that the tobacco industry is complaining about a black market that they essentially created and blaming the government for enabling that market?
Vass Bednar [00:16:27] Earlier, you flicked at the virility myth around pouches. And I want to come back to that for a second because one of the surprise champions of nicotine pouches is actually Tucker Carlson. Can you connect the dots between Zinn and Sonic and others and kind of conservative bro culture, which is a trend that I think has been labeled. Now I get to say funny words, mask use Xfinity and like, how did that happen?
Luc Rinaldi [00:16:55] Yeah, it's kind of odd, but if you think about it a little more and like pay attention to who is promoting it and talking about it, it starts to make sense in a very odd and extremely online way. Tucker Carlson and his ilk, like the Now Cowboys, Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate like, not necessarily those guys, but that world is really into Zinn and says like, it's really helping with my focus and it helps me be more productive and heightens my creativity. And yes, it's like improving my libido. And it's like falling within this greater trend of masculinity. If it's within this, like, greater environment that's like obsessed with sort of supplements and, you know, cold plunges and bodybuilding and some sort of weird corner of wellness that's like rise and grind hustle culture. And of course, it's sort of all nonsense. Like I don't think there's any reliable science that Zanik or Zen or any of these creatively named pouches is actually doing any of the things that these people claim it is. But nonetheless, you know, these guys are out here promoting it.
Vass Bednar [00:18:12] I also want to talk about the element of cool with these non combustibles. cigarettes have always also been about culture and associated with, you know, music, rebellion. There's something performative about smoking a cigarette right, You have something that you can share and it kind of still is an enduring signal of of coolness in a way, right? Yeah. How can any of these products, ridiculous names aside, possibly compete when you can't really see that nicotine pouch between your gum and your upper lip? So, like, what's the point?
Luc Rinaldi [00:18:51] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the point is to to get nicotine. Like, I, I really do think it's just sort of about that more than anything else. I do think there's probably a cool factor to sort of evading detection. Like to have one on your teacher or two like fool your parents like, I was in class and my teacher didn't know I had a pouch under my lip the whole time. All right, cool. The, like, sort of mischievous aspect of it, the bad boy aspect to it.
Vass Bednar [00:19:19] But you could just have a piece of gum. Yeah.
Luc Rinaldi [00:19:24] But certainly vaping has, like, a culture around it. Like vape nation.
Vass Bednar [00:19:29] Yeah.
Luc Rinaldi [00:19:29] I get the appeal of vaping, but I don't find it particularly cool to be like sucking on a USB stick that's flavored like Diet Blue Pepsi or something.
Vass Bednar [00:19:50] Big tobacco feels like it should operate in that old fashioned smoky boardroom. I can't help but picture men in suits. There's also lots of, like, big wooden desks. Definitely not standing desks. Total Mad Men vibes. But you actually went to the Imperial Tobacco Head office in Montreal. Can you paint me a picture and kind of walk me in with you? What was it like?
Luc Rinaldi [00:20:14] Yeah. Imagine, like going to the Nestlé office. Imagine going to, like, Canadian tire.
Vass Bednar [00:20:22] Okay.
Luc Rinaldi [00:20:23] Like just sort of a bland corporate office. And that's kind of what it's like. I mean, I stepped in and you're in a traditional lobby with a security guard, and there's like a banner touting the building's environmental bonafides. And, you know, I got a tour through the office and there's, you know, pride balloons. There's lots of people smiling and doing their job. And cigarettes just sort of feel very distant from their culture right now, despite the fact that that's how they make most of their money. But essentially, they've sort of tried to rebrand from within. They're like a great place to work. Several years running, I was told, and I and I do believe that they have low turnover. People tend to stick around. They've got it like a nice cafeteria and a gym. It's like not what you might imagine. Like, there's no smoke. There's this look.
Vass Bednar [00:21:20] So you went there to interview Imperial Tobacco CEO Frank Silva. Why do you think he agreed to be interviewed?
Luc Rinaldi [00:21:28] He was pretty forthright about how the industry is like not super well received right now, which is a bit jarring because like you think of a CEO and you would think of that person as sort of like the biggest cheerleader for their company. And he's essentially saying like, hey, look, you know, he did bad, but we're trying to change. You know, we're like a boyfriend that, you know, did something that you didn't like, but give us another chance and give us another chance.
Vass Bednar [00:21:59] No Ben Affleck!
Luc Rinaldi [00:22:01] We are investing in these other products and like we're really serious about it, like we have invested in these vapes and we're investing in these pouches and we're approaching the government with goodwill and we are going through all the regulatory review processes. And you can trust us because we want to get everybody off cigarettes the same way that the government does. And in fact, they make a very interesting argument, which is that the government, not them, are the reason that smoking rates are not falling further than they are. So there's this thing called Canada's tobacco Strategy, which aims to get the smoking rate below 5% by 2030. And the tobacco industry says, Yeah, hey, we love that. Like, let's go smoking right down 2030. Perfect. We're on board. But that's never going to happen. If you clamped down on vapes and pouches and these things that are helping smokers quit. Like, we're never going to get those public health benefits if the government keeps regulating this stuff super strictly. And so they essentially say we're trying to transform for the better and the state is getting in our way. But they were very welcoming. And it became clear to me why that was the case. It's because they have a story to tell about where they are in their company life cycle right now, and not a lot of people are particularly interested in listening to them because I think the industry has a very big lack of public trust and lack of public goodwill. But I wanted to hear that story.
Vass Bednar [00:23:38] Do you buy that story?
Luc Rinaldi [00:23:41] No. The truth is, like the beyond nicotine category, as they call it, accounts for such a tiny, tiny, tiny piece of their revenue that it's basically impossible to imagine that ever being anything more than sort of a token investment for them. And then the vapes and the pouches and heated tobacco products, those are like less than 20% of their revenue as well. It's not to say that they're not important to them and they are growing unlike cigarette smoking, which in Canada is continuing to go down, but for the most part, like it's sort of a smoke screen, pardon the pun, for the fact that cigarettes are still their bread and butter like it's 4/5 plus of all the money they make all over the world. And that is not changing in a meaningful way.
Vass Bednar [00:24:29] Well, and then at the same time, kind of coloring that with this pivot to wellness that you've mentioned and that is in your piece. Right? Shifting to non nicotine products, but suggesting that the absence of tobacco is the equivalent of something that's healthy as part of that repositioning. You had a few set. Or maybe more of an energy drink called ride. I do want to say that's with a Y. What was that like? Is it going to do the job of a cigarette?
Luc Rinaldi [00:24:58] No. Come on. Like it's a five hour energy drink that doesn't give you any energy. Essentially that's like what it felt like to me. I just tasted it and I was like, I would rather orange juice. And it was supposed to energize me. It was supposed to relax me. There's like three different flavors. And it helped me focus. And I tried them all at separate times and they didn't do a whole lot. But essentially it's like, is this going to be the future of big tobacco? Like these little shots and yeah, you know, supplements and hemp products, like is that really going to compete with cigarettes like. Of course not. For one, there are all kinds of companies already out there making these kinds of things, and they're nowhere near as big or as profitable as tobacco companies. And they're not addictive. Like that's that's how the industry makes its money, is that it gets people addicted to a product and continues to sell that product to them while raising the prices. And that turns out to be a really, really good business model in terms of making money, not super good in terms of public health, but the ride shots are just not going to do it.
Vass Bednar [00:26:09] One kind of wonders after a century of science and a century of lobbying and sponsored research, why isn't tobacco just illegal at this point?
Luc Rinaldi [00:26:23] Yeah, I mean, some countries are trying to get there, like the U.K. is exploring this idea of outlawing cigarette sales to people born after 2009. So essentially the legal age to smoke a cigarette would increase every year by one year. And so anyone born after 2009 would never be able to legally smoke a cigarette. Whether that works, I mean, let's see. It feels like the kind of thing that like one government would be a really big fan of and then the next one would come and just be like, Forget that. In Canada in particular, like Newfoundland is considering that kind of thing. But I think the bigger point to consider is we're in a sort of odd situation now where you've got like millions of people who are smoking and so you can't just like make that product illegal. All of a sudden it's going to have like severe effects. Like anyone who's tried to quit smoking knows that that would be pretty bad. There's also the fact that cigarettes are taxed so heavily, and so the provinces and the federal government now receive billions of dollars every year from the sale of cigarettes. And if they outlawed cigarettes, they would be essentially passing up on all that money that is probably going to get spent on the black market. Anyway.
Vass Bednar [00:27:44] You have this amazing phrase in your piece litigation Ponzi scheme, where you're gesturing at these huge payouts that certain provinces are anticipating. Could you tell us a little bit more about those?
Luc Rinaldi [00:27:56] Yeah, I don't want to take credit for that phrase, litigation Ponzi scheme, because there was a quote from Cynthia Callard, who runs Physicians for Smokefree Canada. But what Cynthia is describing there is this phenomenon happening right now where the tobacco company is, as a result of decades long litigation, now owe the provinces tens, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars to pay back the health care costs that we've spent as a country to take care of smokers and deal with the illnesses brought about by cigarettes. And so you might think like, isn't that going to bankrupt these companies? Apparently not, because they have really rich multinational parent companies that could bail them out. But the Ponzi scheme aspect of it is that to pay those penalties back to the provinces, these companies are inevitably going to have to continue to make money. And right now, that means selling their very addictive and harmful products. And so you pay back the last generation of smokers by hooking a new generation of smokers or nicotine patch users or vapers. And that's how you get that Ponzi scheme.
Vass Bednar [00:29:07] So what do you think the future for big tobacco is?
Luc Rinaldi [00:29:11] The one thing that could make a huge difference is those decades long lawsuits that I was talking about. And it seems like we're about to sort of reach a resolution. And there are various things that could happen as part of that resolution, like, you know, some of this money that they have to pay back goes into, you know, public health campaigns. There could be something, as you know, ambitious. There was a phase out of commercial cigarette sales over time. But like Frank Silva said this thing to me at the end of our interview that felt like both sort of depressing but super true, which is that nicotine has been used for thousands of years. And it's. Probably going to continue to be used for thousands of years. And whether that's like in the form of a cigarette or in the form of a vape or some other product that hasn't been invented yet. I think like humans, you know, if we get addicted to something, we're going to try to feed that addiction. And so, so long as that's legal for us to do, we're going to probably keep doing it. And so long as there's money to be made, shareholders are going to continue to invest in those kinds of companies. And, you know, hopefully you can have a lesser public health impact over time. But I'm not super optimistic that we're going to solve the cigarette problem, like even in my lifetime. You know, maybe some podcaster in 2074 is going to be talking about the. I guess what we're doing right now and asking about how the tobacco industry responded to the backlash.
Vass Bednar [00:30:42] It's a fascinating business. These are really important evolutions. We so appreciated your piece. You can read Luke's piece, Blowing Smoke in the Globe and Mail report on Business magazine. Luca was so great to talk to you.
Luc Rinaldi [00:30:55] So great to talk to you, Vass
Vass Bednar [00:30:56] I had a pouch in my lap the whole time.
Luc Rinaldi [00:31:00] You are so cool.
Vass Bednar [00:31:14] You've been listening to lately, a Globe and Mail podcast. Our executive producer is Katrina Onstad. The show is produced by Jay Cockburn, and our sound designer is Cameron McIvor, and I'm your host partner. In our shownotes. You can subscribe to the Lately newsletter. That's where we unpack just a little more of the latest in business and technology. A new episode of Lately comes out every Friday wherever you get your podcasts.